JFK murder solved

www.jfkmurdersolved

Sewer Rat wrote:

www.jfkmurdersolved

This looks to be complete crap.

I think this must be the eleventy-millionth guy who has confessed to being the grassy knoll sniper...and just happens to be selling yet another tell-all book.

The JFK assassination is, however, I think, an excellent "primer" on conspiracies and the psychology of conspiracies...from both the advocate's and skeptic's point of view...and you soon see that both sides are prone to the faults of their own persepctives and try to force the facts into a mold to suit their outcomes...their preconceived biases.

It is also an intriguing lesson into how difficult it is to achieve a grasp of "facts"...how people can be convinced that what their senses tell them is not actually accurate...how reality can be "spun".

As a friend of mine was fond of quoting, "in politics, perception IS reality".

That is...as they say...the "bottom line".

the 3rd Man wrote: Sewer Rat wrote:

www.jfkmurdersolved

This looks to be complete crap.

I think this must be the eleventy-millionth guy who has confessed to being the grassy knoll sniper...and just happens to be selling yet another tell-all book.

I am usually skeptical and careful, but I saw a documentary about this, with also parts of the video-interview with James E. Files, and to me it looked convincing rather than complete crap.

I do not know enough of all this to make a proper judgment, though.

"Sewer Rat" <ratfromthesewer> wrote

I am usually skeptical and careful, but I saw a documentary about this, with also parts of the video-interview with James E. Files, and to me it looked convincing rather than complete crap.

I do not know enough of all this to make a proper judgment, though.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, and been proven many times over and many years ago already, that it was the Bush crime syndicate that killed JfK.

Sewer Rat wrote: the 3rd Man wrote: Sewer Rat wrote:

www.jfkmurdersolved

This looks to be complete crap.

I think this must be the eleventy-millionth guy who has confessed to being the grassy knoll sniper...and just happens to be selling yet another tell-all book.

I am usually skeptical and careful, but I saw a documentary about this, with also parts of the video-interview with James E. Files, and to me it looked convincing rather than complete crap.

Well, I admit that I didn't look at it very carefully.

As soon as I saw the bit about Bush being in Dallas...you see, first of all...there used to be a story that Nixon was in Dallas that day.

And there are lots of similar "confessions". There was one...a couple of years back...where this guy in Texas claimed to have found stuff from his Dad that laid the whole thing out...found classified stuff from Naval Intelligence and a handgun in a sealed pneumatic tube where Dad instructed him to dig in the backyard. Dad claimed to have popped JFK from the fence behind the grassy knoll. And Dad left a safety deposit box for the kid that the FBI wouldn't let him open. White, I think the kid's name was...an interesting story...Daddy shot the Prez...but all bullshit.

I'm not sure...but I actually think he was(Nixon) in Dallas thta morning and then flew out...but the point is...what's the point of that? You mean that you think if these high-profile figures were involved in a murder conspiracy, the thing to do would be to go to the scene so that you might be implicated?

That's just dumb.

But the thing is...following the development of this thing over the years...the event itself becomes blurred...people read into it what they want to.

Oliver Stone...the director...was apparently profoundly upset, shaken by his service in Viet Nam. His 'take', then on the event...in the film "JFK"...is to read into it a vast governmental-military conspiracy that had to take Kenendy out because of his supposed opposition to the growing US presence in Viet Nam. In doing so, Stone chose to emphasize the elements that he thought supported his viewpoint...and overlooked the more plausible organized crime issue.

Problem is...the historical record is ambiguous at best concerning Kenendy's opposition to the Viet Nam issue.

If you look here...you will see our friend Brucie attempt to implicate the Mossad. LOL.

I mean, pick your bad-guy. It's a Rorshach test...an inkblot...hold it up to your eyes...and see the devil you want to see. Bush, in this case, apparently.

The immediate problem with stories like this one is that given the amount of material out there (and it is HUGE...takes up entire rows of bookshelves in bookstores)...it is very easy to construct a plausible "confession"...and sucker a few chumps into buying the book.

I think, though, as I say, getting into the mystery is a useful exercise in developing critical thinking...and understanding the psychology of conspiracy debates.

You soon learn that one side is as prone to exaggeration and distortion as the other.

I do not know enough of all this to make a proper judgment, though.

Huh. Why not?

You're entitled to an opinion...probably as good as any other.

I will say this...with all of the stuff written and said...it still is an intriguing mystery. And there are still many unexplained facts.

Frank de Groot wrote: "Sewer Rat" <ratfromthesewer> wrote

I am usually skeptical and careful, but I saw a documentary about this, with also parts of the video-interview with James E. Files, and to me it looked convincing rather than complete crap.

I do not know enough of all this to make a proper judgment, though.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, and been proven many times over and many years ago already, that it was the Bush crime syndicate that killed JfK.

LMAO.

If you say so, Frank.

Hey, how the hell have you been?

Actually good to hear from you. Some of us have been a little worried.

there have been a lot of strange rumors about the bushes...one of the most bizarre was the one about george senior being involved with a child sex ring based in nebraska...and there was some very tenuous circumstantial evidence, as I recall...the funniest rumor, which was actually taken seriously by a couple of people on the internet, was started by the onion, which printed a fake story about dubya, in the 80's, being associated with a voodoo inspired crime spree in south texas which resulted in the deaths of several mexican migrant workers.

the 3rd Man wrote: Frank de Groot wrote: "Sewer Rat" <ratfromthesewer> wrote

I am usually skeptical and careful, but I saw a documentary about this, with also parts of the video-interview with James E. Files, and to me it looked convincing rather than complete crap.

I do not know enough of all this to make a proper judgment, though.

It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt, and been proven many times over and many years ago already, that it was the Bush crime syndicate that killed JfK.

LMAO.

If you say so, Frank.

Hey, how the hell have you been?

Actually good to hear from you. Some of us have been a little worried.

Epidemic Intelligence Whitewash wrote:

there have been a lot of strange rumors about the bushes...

Anyone in the public eye sooner or later attracts these type of stories. Repeating them on the internet just makes it worse.

The difficult thing about the Kennedy case is to sort through all the chatter and garbage and try to identify actual facts...that can be verified, or at least, supported with evidence so that you can assign them values...possibly true...not likely...whatever.

Same thing with all the Lyme conspiracy buzz...where are your facts?...where is your evidence?

The problem is that it is REALLY true that repeating LIES over and over again is an effective weapon of the demagogue...some people are not able to distinguish that there never was any objective evidence for the assertion in the first place.

For instance, when someone LIES about you and says that you are being PAID to say this or that...without ANY evidence of the TRUTH whatsoever...a BALDFACED ABSOLUTE LIE...and tiny-brained wipers of other people's bottoms pick-up on this and repeat it...until it is accepted as truth by some.

EVIDENCE...you need EVIDENCE that what you say is true.

ALWAYS.

(One thing I forgot on the subject of JFK's personal life...again, Hersh's book...it really was getting to the point of Caligula-like performances.

Personally, I really could care less about a President's personal life...all that Monica Lewinsky stuff was just nonsense. Who cares?

But...it can become a security matter...

According to some of the more explosive stuff in Hersh...Kennedy may have been seeing a lady of East German origin who was, I believe married...and widely suspected as being a Soviet agent.

If that story had gotten out at the time...all hell probably would have broken loose.

The story is pretty-well documented).

Interesting, because it appears possible that intelligence entities may have considered the President as a security risk...as strange as that may sound.

Sewer Rat wrote: the 3rd Man wrote: Sewer Rat wrote:

www.jfkmurdersolved

This looks to be complete crap.

I think this must be the eleventy-millionth guy who has confessed to being the grassy knoll sniper...and just happens to be selling yet another tell-all book.

I am usually skeptical and careful, but I saw a documentary about this, with also parts of the video-interview with James E. Files, and to me it looked convincing rather than complete crap.

I do not know enough of all this to make a proper judgment, though.

Have had a little more time to look at this...and here's what I found on this guy...and fairly quickly, too... -- The Files Hustle

Producer Bob Vernon has spent over a decade trying to arrange a "big score" from the James Files story, and the closest he's gotten was serious interest from NBC. But NBC was cautious, and refused to air the files story without checking it out. They hired author and assassination expert Edward J. Epstein to vet the story. The following is Epstein's account of what happened, from an April 24, 2001 e-mail written to Barb Junkkarinen (which Epstein gave Junkkarinen permission to post on the Internet):

"In brief, NBC retained me as a consultant for their planned story on Files. I hired the detective firm of Jules Kroll. JK established from telephone records Files was in Chicago, not Dallas, on November 22,1963. We then placed a call to Files from Dick Clark's office (DC was producer), and I interviewed Files about Kroll findings. He said he had a twin brother, who no one knew about, and whom he met shortly before November 22, and who he murdered after November 22. He said it was his twin brother in hospital with his wife, not him. His wife, however, said there was no twin, and Kroll confirmed there was no twin. My view then and now is that Files invented the story for the money it would earn him."

Ed Epstein --

Sorry, but it pretty much looks like a complete scam to me.

The stuff I saw on the website...most of this is rehashed nonsense from way back...some of which has been pretty conclusively disproven.

The story of the three "hobos" or vagrants picked up at the time of the assassination...for instance...these people were pretty authoritavely identified a long time ago...none of them contract killers or CIA operatives...just guys down on their luck and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Just a con telling tales out his ass...and a producer trying to make a buck, looks like to me.

Here's what I found on Ed Epstein...and fairly quickly, too...

www.jfkmurdersolved/epstein.htm

BOB VERNON STATEMENT ON ED EPSTEIN AND JAMES FILES

QUOTE In brief, NBC retained me as a consultant for their planned story on Files. I hired the detective firm of Jules Kroll. JK established from telephone records Files was in Chicago, not Dallas, on November 22,1963. We then placed a call to Files from Dick Clark's office (DC was producer), and I interviewed Files about Kroll findings. He said he had a twin brother, who no one knew about, and whom he met shortly before November 22, and who he murdered after November 22. He said it was his twin brother in hospital with his wife, not him. His wife, however, said there was no twin, and Kroll confirmed there was no twin. My view then and now is that Files invented the story for the money it would earn him. Ed Epstein UNQUOTE

Please allow me to be specific on a point to point basis:

Epstein: In brief, NBC retained me as a consultant for their planned story on Files.

Vernon: To my knowledge this is true however I do not believe it. When I was informed, by Dick Clark, personally, that NBC had a consultant coming in and Dick told me the consultant’s name was Epstein, I immediately went to my office on the second floor of dick clark productions in Burbank, California and I called five of, in my humble opinion, the top JFK researchers: Prof. Josiah Thompson, Prof. Peter Dale Scott, Former CIA case officer John R. Stockwell, Gary Shaw and, last but certainly not least, Jim Marrs. All five men, let me repeat that….ALL FIVE MEN…..told me that Epstein was CIA and was being sent in to kill our program on NBC. Prof. Thompson remarked that the Kroll Agency was filled with “bureaucrats” (his exact words) and he chuckled. I was further informed that Epstein didn’t touch his typewriter for less than $500,000, not only was he CIA but he married a CIA agent (I have no knowledge of Epstein’s wife, if any, at all), and that he was on his way to see DeMorenschilt (sic) when DeMorenschilit committed “suicide.” I immediately ran back downstairs to inform Dick and Barry Adelman (Executive VP of dcp) what I had found out about Epstein. Dick and Barry listened and thought about what I said. Dick’s final executive decision was that we do whatever NBC asks in order to satisfy them. A day or so later, perhaps more, Epstein showed up with an NBC lawyer named Marge or Margie. Our first meeting was very cordial. We met in Dick Clark’s conference room at a table underneath Elvis Presley’s jeweled white cape hanging on the wall, next to John Lennon’s and Elton John’s shoes in a glass case. I was asked to show Epstein all of our findings and I did. I answered all his questions in a clear, direct manner, no adjectives, no adverbs. Lunch was sent in. Epstein had ordered a chicken salad. During the course of the meal, Epstein got choked on a chicken bone from the salad. I was sitting next to him and observed him start to spit and gag. His face became slightly discolored. I slapped him on the back and the chicken bone dislodged from his throat. He appeared grateful and thanked me.

EPSTEIN: I hired the detective firm of Jules Kroll.

VERNON: I do not know who hired Kroll. They just appeared. I do know that we (being dcp, Truth, Truth, Truth, Inc. and Bob Vernon) paid Kroll’s fee for it was deducted from our advance from MPI and sent back to NBC as an imbursement…or at least that is what I was told.

EPSTEIN: JK established from telephone records Files was in Chicago, not Dallas, on November 22, 1963.

VERNON: This is an outright lie by Epstein. The final WRITTEN opinion from the Kroll Agency was that Kroll found “NO OTHER PLACE” that James Files was on 11/22/63. Repeat: THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE BY EPSTEIN.

EPSTEIN: We then placed a call to Files from Dick Clark's office (DC was producer), and I interviewed Files about Kroll findings.

VERNON: I do not recall Epstein interviewing James Files, at least, not when I was present and I was the only one who could get Files on the phone for I had a personal clearance from the Warden. I do know that several of Epstein’s questions regarding James Files were asked directly to Mr. Files by Barry Adelman and myself from Barry’s office. The answers provided were given directly to Epstein and/or the lady lawyer from NBC. I do not recall Epstein interviewing Files.

EPSTEIN: He (James Files) said he had a twin brother, who no one knew about, and whom he met shortly before November 22, and who he murdered after November 22. He said it was his twin brother in hospital with his wife, not him. His wife, however, said there was no twin, and Kroll confirmed there was no twin.

VERNON: This is an outright lie by Epstein. James Files never stated that he had a “twin brother”. This is an outright lie by Epstein. The story of Files having a twin brother was fabricated by Files’ daughter, ex-wife, a Priest and a mob lawyer in Chicago to try to disillusion NBC, or anyone for that matter, and make Files not believable. It was a nice try but it didn’t work. Houston criminal attorney Don Ervin immediately recognized it as a lie and told me specifically that is was a fabrication and that the old mob lawyer was part of it….before I knew the truth about the matter, I might add. This also caused me to break a promise to James Files and that was I was not to go “into his family” for any reason. The same afternoon I became of aware of the “twin brother story”…I spoke personally with James Files’ father, half brother (a minister) and his mother’s sister, who literally raised Files. I knew almost immediately that there was no twin brother. I also spoke to Files. I told him what I knew and he told me the truth…that the story HAD been fabricated by the wife/daughter, Priest and lawyer and that he had called his ex-wife and she came to the prison at his request. She told Files that she still loved him and that she was trying to protect him over the JFK assassination. Files told her that if she was to be called in front of a grand jury to tell the truth for he did not want to see her go to jail. I asked Files if he would also tell the people at dick clark productions the truth about the matter. He said he would. I called for my car and driver and arrived at Dick’s office within 10 minutes or so. Barry Adelman and I called James Files. Files told Barry exactly what he had told me less than a half hour earlier. The phone call was recorded, with Files permission, and it is in the evidence. At no time did James Files EVER say he had a twin brother. Kroll confirmed nothing. Repeat: THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE BY EPSTEIN.

EPSTEIN: My view then and now is that Files invented the story for the money it would earn him.

VERNON: James Files has never asked us for one single penny nor have we ever given James Files any money. The night before Epstein left Los Angleles, I called him at his hotel. I asked him why NBC cancelled our program. Epstein told me that it was because we had received “too much press” (his exact words) and he cited a small article in the Beaumont Enterprise. I asked if he realized that on Easter Sunday, 15,000 people MIGHT read the Beaumont Enterprise and Epstein told me he had to pack for he was leaving early. I told him we will meet again.

A few months later, Mike Cochran of the Associated Press (now retired) called me to tell me that the New York Post had written a piece on us. I knew nothing about it and called my New York attorney and had her acquire the article. The Post had run a huge piece on their infamous “PAGE 6” gossip page, featuring Epstein, and the piece was filled with lies and blatant misrepresentations. I called the reporter, Richard Johnson. I talked to him like a yard dog. I was furious. How could some hack reporter do an article on James Files and not contact me, the producer, for my input? It doesn’t happen.

Of particular interest to me was the article featured quotes from Epstein and Epstein had signed a confidentiality agreement with NBC, as we did. Oh well……

The conclusion is clear and very simple: Epstein is CIA and he killed our program.

Now, ask yourself one question: Why? If our program was NOT TRUE, what does it matter? No one ever tried to stop Nigel Turner or Oliver Stone or Mark Lane….they told their stories….they presented their views…….why stop the story of James Files?

So I now have experienced the full blunt force of the CIA disinfo machine. They call it “Damage Control.”

Hind sight is always 20/20. I should never have slapped Epstein on the back and dislodged the chicken bone from his throat.

Tuesday, September 16, 2003

Robert G. Vernon

the 3rd Man wrote:

Have had a little more time to look at this...and here's what I found on this guy...and fairly quickly, too... -- The Files Hustle

Producer Bob Vernon has spent over a decade trying to arrange a "big score" from the James Files story, and the closest he's gotten was serious interest from NBC. But NBC was cautious, and refused to air the files story without checking it out. They hired author and assassination expert Edward J. Epstein to vet the story. The following is Epstein's account of what happened, from an April 24, 2001 e-mail written to Barb Junkkarinen (which Epstein gave Junkkarinen permission to post on the Internet):

"In brief, NBC retained me as a consultant for their planned story on Files. I hired the detective firm of Jules Kroll. JK established from telephone records Files was in Chicago, not Dallas, on November 22,1963. We then placed a call to Files from Dick Clark's office (DC was producer), and I interviewed Files about Kroll findings. He said he had a twin brother, who no one knew about, and whom he met shortly before November 22, and who he murdered after November 22. He said it was his twin brother in hospital with his wife, not him. His wife, however, said there was no twin, and Kroll confirmed there was no twin. My view then and now is that Files invented the story for the money it would earn him."

Ed Epstein --

Sorry, but it pretty much looks like a complete scam to me.

The stuff I saw on the website...most of this is rehashed nonsense from way back...some of which has been pretty conclusively disproven.

The story of the three "hobos" or vagrants picked up at the time of the assassination...for instance...these people were pretty authoritavely identified a long time ago...none of them contract killers or CIA operatives...just guys down on their luck and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Just a con telling tales out his ass...and a producer trying to make a buck, looks like to me.

the 3rd Man wrote: The story of the three "hobos" or vagrants picked up at the time of the assassination...for instance...these people were pretty authoritavely identified a long time ago...none of them contract killers or CIA operatives...just guys down on their luck and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Three Tramps

Transcript of a slide presentation by Lois Gibson.

Lois Gibson works for the Houston Police Department and is probably the most respected forensic artist and facial expert in the world. She has just been awarded with a notation in the Guinness Book of World Records for the highest crime solving rate based on composite sketches.

www.jfkmurdersolved/lois1.htm

Sewer Rat wrote: the 3rd Man wrote: The story of the three "hobos" or vagrants picked up at the time of the assassination...for instance...these people were pretty authoritavely identified a long time ago...none of them contract killers or CIA operatives...just guys down on their luck and in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Three Tramps

Transcript of a slide presentation by Lois Gibson.

Lois Gibson works for the Houston Police Department and is probably the most respected forensic artist and facial expert in the world. She has just been awarded with a notation in the Guinness Book of World Records for the highest crime solving rate based on composite sketches.

www.jfkmurdersolved/lois1.htm --- Yes, I saw it.

As I said, this silliness about the "hobos" was laid to rest a long time ago. For awhile, it was even suggested that two of the vagrants were E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis of the Watergate break-in fame. - As for Stone's three sinister "men acting like hoboes," they have been identified. At the time Stone was filming JFK, the November 22, 1963, arrest records of the three men were sitting in the Dallas city archives, where they had been declassified, along with a mountain of other assassination-related material, since 1989. They were discovered on February 3, 1992, by researcher Mary La Fontaine. The men's names were Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Forrester Gedney.(3)



[Ray and Mary La Fontaine] traced the one man who had given an address of West Virginia [Harold Doyle], first to that state and then to Amarillo, Texas where at least one neighbor recalled his telling of his arrest in Dallas in 1963. Doyle, a now balding, pudgy, affable character with a "man of the road" manner of expressing himself, was finally located in Klamath Falls, Oregon where he had a small apartment and worked part time in a local pool hall. He told his story to the La Fontaines who sold this exclusive to the sensationalistic television program, A Current Affair. The taped piece ran on February 25, 1992, with a follow-up segment in early March. In a seeming first, a tabloid-like, often exploitative genre TV program was laying to rest, rather than promoting or instigating, a long held possible conspiracy theory. It was fascinating television, and as soon as the now 61-year-old Doyle appeared in view, his face was recognizable to many who had seen the "tramp" photos during years of research. His story was not sensational, but rang of truth.



Beginning the day at a homeless shelter in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza, Doyle and his two companions had decided to hitch a train ride to Fort Worth. ". . . [B]efore we went to the railroad yard, sirens and everything was going on and all, and we asked somebody what happened and they said the President been shot. Then all at once someone said, 'Don't make a move.' We looked up the end we were sitting in and the far end down the side we were surrounded by policemen with guns drawn and they said, 'Don't make a move.'" The three were pulled out of the boxcar. Doyle remembers that the police ". . . took us through the park [Dealey Plaza]. All the people was going on and the sirens was going and people was taking pictures of us coming over this a way. Hell, there was all photographers, people hollering, 'Are they the one that done it? Are they the one that done it?'" At the police station Doyle was at one point across a desk from the recently arrested Lee Oswald, and someone said to the vagrants, "You boys are sure lucky. You see the guy that killed the President in person."

Doyle had known about the "tramp" controversy for some time, having kept a copy of at least one article including a photo published about the mystery. Not the type to come forward to authorities about his role on November 22, he has feigned notoriety stating, "I'm a plain guy, a simple country boy, and that's the way I want to stay. I wouldn't be a celebrity for 10 million damn dollars." Believing the controversy over the photos of the tramps might imply his having taken part in a conspiracy, Doyle emphasized, "But like I said, I had nothing to do with it. Don't bother me whether they believe me or not. If they want to think I did it, its up to the individual. . . . But like I said, the 'tramps' had nothing to do with it."

Subsequent inquiries by the government as well as by researchers located John F. Gedney in Melbourne, Florida. A respected 67-year-old municipal officer, Gedney had not been driven to speak to outsiders about this earlier, harder, vagabond time of his life. At that time in 1963 he was making his way towards Alaska where there seemed more work opportunities. He is not now enthusiastic about all of the new notoriety and crazy speculation. Of the incident in Dallas he told one reporter, "We were taken away, put in jail for three or four days and found not guilty of anything except vagrancy." Gus Abrams was 76 when he died in Ohio in August 1987. Contacted by a researcher, Abrams' sister, with whom he had lived for the last 15 years, knew nothing of his being in Dallas the day of the assassination. She recalled that back in those days, "he was always on the go hopping trains and drinking wine." She speculated he didn't even know who the President was. When presented with a picture of the November 22 "tramps" she confirmed to the researcher, "Yep, that's my Bill!"(4)

Sewer Rat wrote: , "All five men, let me repeat that....ALL FIVE MEN.....told me that Epstein was CIA and was being sent in to kill our program on NBC.

The conclusion is clear and very simple: Epstein is CIA and he killed our program".

LMAO.

Sure.

Well this is predictable isn't it?

Sounds like Lisa is somehow involved here...if you can't offer an explanation or counter the information...just smear the motives...say the person is a paid agent...a distributor of disinformation.

This is always the answer of the conspiracy buffs when someone shoots down their favorite "smoking gun du jour".

No.

Like I said, I am not what I would consider to be an expert...or even a 'buff' on this...but this one doesn't even pass the giggle test. It's really nonsense.

The Kennedy assassination is kind of a "cottage industry" in and of itself...and you need to be very careful when you see the words "book and DVD" available for purchase.

This guy Files is a convicted felon. You have to be careful with statements from people like that. (Right, Kathleen)?

I sort of skimmed through the Files statements that I could see...and there is NOTHING in there that I could see that is in any way new or hasn't been bandied about in the public domain for years.

The stuff about the target pistol and the "mercury load", (although interesting), included...circa 1967.

the 3rd Man wrote:

The Three Tramps

Transcript of a slide presentation by Lois Gibson.

Lois Gibson works for the Houston Police Department and is probably the most respected forensic artist and facial expert in the world. She has just been awarded with a notation in the Guinness Book of World Records for the highest crime solving rate based on composite sketches.

www.jfkmurdersolved/lois1.htm

--- Yes, I saw it.

As I said, this silliness about the "hobos" was laid to rest a long time ago. For awhile, it was even suggested that two of the vagrants were E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis of the Watergate break-in fame. - As for Stone's three sinister "men acting like hoboes," they have been identified. At the time Stone was filming JFK, the November 22, 1963, arrest records of the three men were sitting in the Dallas city archives, where they had been declassified, along with a mountain of other assassination-related material, since 1989. They were discovered on February 3, 1992, by researcher Mary La Fontaine. The men's names were Harold Doyle, Gus Abrams, and John Forrester Gedney.(3)



[Ray and Mary La Fontaine] traced the one man who had given an address of West Virginia [Harold Doyle], first to that state and then to Amarillo, Texas where at least one neighbor recalled his telling of his arrest in Dallas in 1963. Doyle, a now balding, pudgy, affable character with a "man of the road" manner of expressing himself, was finally located in Klamath Falls, Oregon where he had a small apartment and worked part time in a local pool hall. He told his story to the La Fontaines who sold this exclusive to the sensationalistic television program, A Current Affair. The taped piece ran on February 25, 1992, with a follow-up segment in early March. In a seeming first, a tabloid-like, often exploitative genre TV program was laying to rest, rather than promoting or instigating, a long held possible conspiracy theory. It was fascinating television, and as soon as the now 61-year-old Doyle appeared in view, his face was recognizable to many who had seen the "tramp" photos during years of research. His story was not sensational, but rang of truth.



Beginning the day at a homeless shelter in the vicinity of Dealey Plaza, Doyle and his two companions had decided to hitch a train ride to Fort Worth. ". . . [B]efore we went to the railroad yard, sirens and everything was going on and all, and we asked somebody what happened and they said the President been shot. Then all at once someone said, 'Don't make a move.' We looked up the end we were sitting in and the far end down the side we were surrounded by policemen with guns drawn and they said, 'Don't make a move.'" The three were pulled out of the boxcar. Doyle remembers that the police ". . . took us through the park [Dealey Plaza]. All the people was going on and the sirens was going and people was taking pictures of us coming over this a way. Hell, there was all photographers, people hollering, 'Are they the one that done it? Are they the one that done it?'" At the police station Doyle was at one point across a desk from the recently arrested Lee Oswald, and someone said to the vagrants, "You boys are sure lucky. You see the guy that killed the President in person."

Doyle had known about the "tramp" controversy for some time, having kept a copy of at least one article including a photo published about the mystery. Not the type to come forward to authorities about his role on November 22, he has feigned notoriety stating, "I'm a plain guy, a simple country boy, and that's the way I want to stay. I wouldn't be a celebrity for 10 million damn dollars." Believing the controversy over the photos of the tramps might imply his having taken part in a conspiracy, Doyle emphasized, "But like I said, I had nothing to do with it. Don't bother me whether they believe me or not. If they want to think I did it, its up to the individual. . . . But like I said, the tramps' had nothing to do with it."

Subsequent inquiries by the government as well as by researchers located John F. Gedney in Melbourne, Florida. A respected 67-year-old municipal officer, Gedney had not been driven to speak to outsiders about this earlier, harder, vagabond time of his life. At that time in 1963 he was making his way towards Alaska where there seemed more work opportunities. He is not now enthusiastic about all of the new notoriety and crazy speculation. Of the incident in Dallas he told one reporter, "We were taken away, put in jail for three or four days and found not guilty of anything except vagrancy." Gus Abrams was 76 when he died in Ohio in August 1987. Contacted by a researcher, Abrams' sister, with whom he had lived for the last 15 years, knew nothing of his being in Dallas the day of the assassination. She recalled that back in those days, "he was always on the go hopping trains and drinking wine." She speculated he didn't even know who the President was. When presented with a picture of the November 22 "tramps" she confirmed to the researcher, "Yep, that's my Bill!"(4)

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